John stopped by my previous post to leave a comment. (Thanks John). I started to respond to him there and then decided my reply was probably long enough to warrant its own post.
John's post is in purple and my responses are in blue.
Hi,
the boat example is a very poor argument.
Well, I thought the car one had been over done ...
The primary application of a gun is to kill.
I'll concede that it is an application.
It does not have any other uses.
Um, no! Guns do have other applications.
Boats are used for recreation, fishing, travel etc. Sometimes things go wrong and someone will die but it was not the purpose of the boat.
When a gun kills someone it has done the right thing.
I strongly believe that a gun in an inanimate object with no sense of right or wrong. I do not agree that when a gun kills it is necessarily the right thing at all.
All the items you mention have other primary uses "boats, pillows, cars, cricket bats, stairs". Oviously they can accidentally or puposefully be used to kill but that is not what they are for.
As above. However I will challenge you on 'cricket bats'. Bats, as far as I know, originated from hunting clubs, so if you want to say that gun's only purpose is killing I think you'll have to same the same for bats - regardless of the different use of them today.
As for the self defense aspect I would ask you to consider some things.
The crime rate in Perth.
Not sure where you're going here but okay .. yes, we have crime
The rate of violent crimes.
And yes, we have violent crime ....
Your gun should be stored in a gun safe I believe, how long will it take you to access it?
Yes guns MUST be stored in a gun safe and it will take me considerable time, more than useful in a self-defense situation, to access it.
If you don't carry your gun with you (which I don't imagine you are allowed to do) it won't be able to help you anywhere besides at home.
No, I am not allowed to carry my gun (except to the range, gun shop etc) so yes, you are correct, and as for "at home" see the point above.
The chance of your gun being stolen and used by a criminal against someone else.
Um? This chance is extremely low. You're more likely to have a car stolen here (despite mandatory immobolisers) and have it used in a crime.
The chance that you carrying a gun will change a non-lethal situation into a lethal one. i.e. the criminal will be forced to use lethal force on you when they may not want to.
Totally disagree. Given that I can not carry a gun here this is irrelevant to me. However, as I clearly stated I'm not looking to, in any way, escalate a situation, just the opposite. Whatever tools I have to hand when in a violent situation will only be used when there is NO OTHER OPTION. I'm certainly not advocating (and I don't know anyone who would) waving a gun around because someone bumped your shopping trolley!
What other options are you exploring on the force continuum to defend your self? e.g. a kosh, a taser, pepper spray, etc.
All of those are illegal here as well (to varying degrees). Basically assume if you're carrying something purely for the purpose of self-defense you're not allowed to.
What are you willing to kill for?
Food. As stated in my earlier posts, I am willing to DEFEND myself. I'm not approaching any situation with the intent to kill.
If a person is robbing you is it worth killing him for $50?
See above.
What if he is robbing you at knifepoint, now is it worth killing him for $50?
See above.
What if the person attacking you is a minor?
See above.
Do you jog (and sprint)? Jogging will help you to run away when in danger and will help you in other ways as well.
V.true - got to do more of that.
Regards,
John.
As I said, thanks for stopping by. I am a bit unclear on your actual stance on things so please feel free to follow up on any of the above topics.
11 comments:
Do you jog (and sprint)? Jogging will help you to run away when in danger...
And the old, handicapped and/or out-of-shape folks? I guess they just deserve to be prey, in John's world. (eyeroll)
So John's basic argument is that defensive arms in the hands of would-be victims is unfair to the criminals, or out of proportion to their desire to steal from or hurt you?
I wonder what John does for a living.
No. Wait.
I don't really wonder. I can make a pretty good guess.
Hey, John! Former sworn peace officer here, one who dealt with violent felons on a daily basis. You want to know what those felons admitted they feared most? Yepper; 10 out 10 worried about the possibility that a target was armed and chose new, apparently unarmed targets instead.* One evening in the prison, several of these guys were watching newscast that spoke of gun control which sparked their own discussion. It was summed up rather well by one convicted mugger who said (phrasing from old memory), "Gun control's great! 'Least I know the f*****s can't hurt me, and I'll always be able to get a gun on the street."
Yeah, I think we know what John's job is.
* The ones who specialized in house burglary ranked large guard dogs a close second.
John, what's with the magical thinking? Why do you believe that your (Or Jigsaw's) actions before a robbery will have any effect upon the attacker's preparations?
Someone who has determined that he will rob you has already decided to threaten you with force in order to get what you have. It is not possible to "escalate" that crime. It's already at the point of force. Killing an attacker is not "escalation."
The fact that you would demand that Jigsaw stand meekly and get hurt or killed rather than fight back makes you effectively a co-conspirator with the attacker.
Sean's comment "effectively makes you a co-conspirator" is eye opening to me. That is exactly what people are when they advocate for the criminal.
What possible reason would someone be concerned for the bad guy?
Also, John, sometimes the bad guy says he wants your $50, but when you give it to him, he wants more. Sometimes that more is your life and I am not gonna stand there and wait to find out.
For most of us this debate is academic, John. For "agirlandhergun," it isn't. I dare you to tell her to her face that she should just "give them what they want."
You empower criminals at the expense of victims.
Good point Sean, and Julie, you DID answer all of his questions the same way most of us would. One MUST honor the threat, and all of us SHOULD have the right to defend ourselves. Do we go out carrying a gun and intending to kill someone? Hell no, but when defense is required, either of ourselves and our loved ones, nothing is off the table. Gun, Bat, Dog, what ever is available is in play.
The primary application of a gun is to kill. It does not have any other uses.
"if you attack me, I will be able to defend myself, even though you are twice as strong as me".
When a gun kills someone it has done the right thing.
I've 'used' a gun once for self defense. The gun never came out of the holster, but the guy kicking the door of the business I had shut down for the night looked at my holster, quit kicking the door, gathered his buddies and they all rode off on their Harleys.
As for the self defense aspect I would ask you to consider some things.
The crime rate in Perth.
The rate of violent crimes.
Your gun should be stored in a gun safe I believe, how long will it take you to access it?
Laws that restrict self defense do tend to make guns less useful. No kidding. On the other hand, look at the rate and character of home invasions in the US, compared to England. (Not only do we have less, ours are almost all criminal on criminal, drug related)
If you don't carry your gun with you (which I don't imagine you are allowed to do)
Again...laws restricting self defense make self defense harder. I can carry where I live.
it won't be able to help you anywhere besides at home.
The chance of your gun being stolen and used by a criminal against someone else.
Lots of safe-breakers around?
The chance that you carrying a gun will change a non-lethal situation into a lethal one. i.e. the criminal will be forced to use lethal force on you when they may not want to.
Doesn't appear to be what happens where guns are allowed. If I'm armed and someone demands my wallet, I can still give them my wallet--I can usually avoid showing that I am armed.
What other options are you exploring on the force continuum to defend your self? e.g. a kosh, a taser, pepper spray, etc.
None--A gun is the most effective, and I'm not the one who chose to attack, and the person that attacked me can break off the attack and I won't shoot them. Where guns are illegal, most often less effective methods are also illegal.
What are you willing to kill for? If a person is robbing you is it worth killing him for $50? What if he is robbing you at knifepoint, now is it worth killing him for $50? What if the person attacking you is a minor?
If I can avoid shooting someone by giving up $50, I'll give up the $50--or $5000. My gun is not to protect property, it is to protect the lives of my family and me. The property is irrelevant
Do you jog (and sprint)? Jogging will help you to run away when in danger and will help you in other ways as well.
I've never been able to sprint well, and it hasn't gotten better as I've gotten older. I don't believe that physical prowess should be the most important part of life, or required to avoid attack.
Thanks for your inputs guys. Lots of great points being made!
Nice post and great comments and let me add..
Twice as recently as yesterday,May 3rd just the fact that I was armed and did not even draw my weapon discourage what looked to me to be a problem..
Years ago at a late night stop for gas, a car pulls across from mine with to people in it and a horrible pounding sound coming from it. One exited going into the store, the other was eyeballing me and looking very, very anxious, agitated etc...I turned to my left showing my right hip which displayed, without my realizing, my holstered gun...gentleman went from eyeballing and agitated to calmly sitting there and looking straight ahead...I did not realize what had happened until I went to get back in my vehicle and saw what he saw in my reflection in window...oops, I am very careful about keeping gun concealed...
Yesterday en route to a class for a metro LEO department. I had to take a brief foray from one hwy to I94 through a so-so section...A car that had rocketed by me earlier with one person in it now came out of a gas station in front of me with two people not..We came to a stop light at entrance to I94 when the passenger exited the vehicle and came towards my car, walking fast, with something in his hand which I cannot tell you was, as I was locked in a stare down with him as he reached the front of my car I took my hand off the steering wheel and reached down to my ...Right hip..He immediately took off across two lanes of traffic into a motel parking lot, vehicle which was now sitting at green light, took off and I bailed onto interstate and left as fast as my 2001 Toyota Echo would go without me getting out and pushing!!
So what in both cases was happening? Was it coincidence? One will never know..
But leave me and my gun alone and I will do the same...
Well put Julie!
Yeah, because trying to run from someone who intends you harm ALWAYS works... I wonder, does he include 'you should run from your own home if an intruder threatens you' in that prescription?
A note, as someone else has pointed out in other places: someone who displays a weapon and the intention to rob you has already decided that your life means nothing; he'll kill or cripple you for that $50. Why should you give him that chance? He's not just wanting your money, he's willing to kill you to get it, so what makes the attackers' life so damned valuable that you shouldn't consider harming him?
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